This is a really great set of suggestions, and much appreciated. I think I need to take them one at a time in order to discuss them individually and work out their pros and cons. I'll try to take them in the order suggested.
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Skills and Progression
The system as it is basically a conflation of skills, traits, feats, abilities, and perks. And there are way too many. A large amount of skills can and probably should be consolidated (There is absoultely no good reason that hunting, snaring, trap setting, skinning, and fishing should be so many separate skills. Same with all the different medicine stuff.). One off or activated abilities (like Hypnotic Augmentation, Mystic Healing, etc.) should probably moved to spells, if for no other reason than they clog up the list even more. Spells are the place where things can get crazy. Skills should be concise and well defined.
I think this is a matter of GM preference, and how they want to define their world. The Mythos Machine's whole point is that it lets you create your own system for Skills and Powers however you think makes the most sense for your own world. You may disagree with the GM's selections, but remember, there are trade offs in any case. Maybe the GM wanted to provide enough skills for the SLP to get used. Maybe there are too many skills and they can be consolidated into more digestible sets. But care has to be taken in relation to the number of SLP granted each class per level. This too can be adjusted by the GM, but they have to do that adjustment thoughtfully. For my world(s) I am providing detailed skills and lots of them to give players a large number of skills to choose from because I want the skills to represent actual choices the players make for their characters.
Whether some skills are spells or not is again completely 100% up to each GM. In some sense my early worlds, such as Elthos, and The Way of All Flesh, and Wild West, among others, are experimental. I'm looking at honing the setup. They can not be thought of as finished works. In fact, it is likely that they will continue to be Works in Progress for a while, as I get more of a feel for the interplay between the number of skills and the their placements within the system, and the SLP and MLP (Skill and Mystic Power Learning Points) distributions, the during course of my Campaigns. I will doubtlessly tinker with them over time.
The Reason Feats are there, and Kung Fu, which both use Mystic Points to activate, is to give non-Mystical classes a chance to actively use their Mystic Points for things other than defense against Mystic Attacks. So in the case of Kung Fu, the Mystic Points act like Chi, and with it you can augment your skill's effectiveness. I have had a number of players along the way who played non-mystic characters and expressed real satisfaction with the Feats and Kung Fu skills. So I think I will continue to have them there for that purpose. However, that said, I certainly may prune the list if it feels unwieldy. But we have to remember, one player's "unwieldy" is another player's "awesome options". This always has to be kept in mind. Everyone has different tastes. It is absolutely impossible that one world will please in every way everyone who plays it. I do not think it is worthwhile to attempt to create a perfect world in that sense. It simply will never happen.
That all said, I definitely encourage all Gamemasters to create Mythos Machine worlds that have skill sets and mystic power sets that make sense to them! If it works for you then it's perfect. Just be aware, some of your players may complain that it doesn't work for them, for whatever reason. Be patient. But stick to your guns. After all, it is YOUR world. If it pleases you, then it's good.
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You've set up the system so players use their skill at their own level, and can spend SLP to buy new skills (changing out skills to make up for expensive purchases.) The problem here is that there is a seemingly ton of overlap between seemingly interchangeable skills (woodworking and carpentry?).
To be clear the way the Elthos RPG Rules work is that there are Primary Skills which always get used at the Character Level +1 no matter when they are learned, and are class or race specific according to the design of the GM of the World. Then there are "Elective" (or secondary) skills which trail behind the Character level by whatever level they were when they selected the skill. So if your Character is 4th level and takes Elective skill Swimming, then he will be 2nd Level at it. When he gets to 5th Level he will be 3rd level at swimming. And so on. Elective Skills trail behind the Character Level. For this reason I advise players to pick their Elective skills at 1st level with an eye towards those skills that they consider Character defining. So if they want a character that is known as a great swimmer, and it's an Elective skill because they selected a class in which swimming is not Primary, then they should take Swimming at 1st Level. it will then always behave for them as if it is a Primary Skill as it will go up in levels at the same rate as their Primary Skills.
Further complicating matters is the disparity in XP requirement and SLP distribution between the classes. All of the following recommendations would probably mandate an adjustment of this system.
Some may, some may not. But anything that does call for an adjustment of the system itself has to be weighed very carefully against all of the pros and cons that doing so would entail for all players and all GMs of the system. If it is a matter of taste, and is not something that can be handled by the GM's configuration of the skills in their world, and is a mechanical change to the system, then it has to be treated with care. That said, it is entirely possible that such suggestions can become GM Options in the World Configuration. But that remains to be seen.
You have also provided a way to boost a skill beyond it's level by doubling the SLP put into it. But it's not clear exactly how much more value this would be compared to a seemingly new and better skill. As it stands now, the compulsion is to always get more total skills, not increase the strength of a skill.
That actually is purely player preference. You may feel compelled to add more skills. But I have other players who prefer to pack existing skills with extra SLP to bump their Use Levels. Some players take full advantage of that, and to good effect, for them. Others prefer to pack in as many skills as possible. That's another strategy. Both are valid. Neither is better or worse than the other. I like providing the option for the players. I think it improves most player's experience of the game. Not everyone. But I think most. At least so far.
There are also the issues of strange one-offs like The Glitch or The Knack. These are interesting but aren't quite skills. They're more like traits or perks.
Well, I guess, but that again is a matter of taste. A skill can be anything that is used by a character to get something done. The Glitch and the Knack, of course, could be Mystic Powers instead of Skills. But again, it's a matter of taste. It amuses me, for my Sci-Fi World, to include them in the skills set, specifically so that non-Mystic characters have a chance to obtain at least a little bit of mystical-ish razzle dazzle. To me, that's a bit of flavor that I recall a couple of players liked. If the skills system is "wrong" because the math doesn't work, then that's something that needs to be addressed. But when it comes to matters of taste, again, you can try pleasing one player, only to find that another player is upset by the difference. You can not please all of your players on matters of taste. That is starkly impossible. Therefore, my rule of thumb is, listen to the players. If what they suggest in terms of matters of taste makes sense to you, and you like the suggestions, and they work for your world, then sure, go for it. But never make changes to please one player, unless you agree fully that the change works for you as the GM. And think through each suggestion carefully before deciding.
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Some suggestions:
***Alternative 1
1. Consolidate like skills into fewer encompassing skills. Do NOT level up skills with character level. As character levels, players may spend SLP in either acquiring new skills or reinforcing existing ones. (growing deep vs grow wide)
2. Dpending on how many SLP are in a skill, a character gains specific "perks (feats)" at each level.
Example: Linguistics Skill
- Level 2: Accent Imitation
- Level 3: Master Second Language
- Level 4: Create New Language
(Main issue here would be the blurb size for an associated skill may be a bit large. It also makes skills very uniform within themselves. The aforementioned "perks" are a bit awkward to fit in here. It does however allow for probably the greatest amount of consolidation. I still think it is the simplest and maybe the best.)
You can do something along these lines by making all skills SLP = 1, and adjust the SLP per Level in your World Config by changing the Bonus SLP per level and the Bonus at 1st Level. However, I very much recommend you experiment with those settings in a test world and run some characters through a sequence of leveling to make sure it works for you. I'm pretty sure that you can configure your world to do exactly what you suggested here. But again, give it a try and see how it works for you. If it doesn't quite do what you want, then let me know and I can probably add something to Mythos Machine to cajole it to work, without having to vastly modify the way the system works.
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***Alternative 2
1. Consolidate low level like skills together. As characters level and gain SLP, offer higher level skills as "advancements" on the particular skill. The low level skill would be swapped out for the higher level skill with the SLP making up the difference.
Yes, this is definitely an option, and can easily be done. In fact I already have that in a few cases, but have not implemented it consistently across the board yet. I do plan to go back over the skills and do just this. I would certainly be happy to get your suggestions on the existing set and how to consolidate them in this fashion.
2. This can also be done in a way such that advanced skills are mutually exclusive, compelling specified character development.
Example:
1.Mechanics -> 3.Engineering -> 5.Robotics
|-> 5.Rocketry
(The main issue with this is that you're essentially just changing the name of the skill. While the mutual exclusivity is interesting, there may be a less redundant way to do it. The idea is to reduce clutter. I believe this is the weakest and least interesting of the options.)
Yeah, I can see that. It's an interesting idea but I'd need to play around with it to see more clearly how it pans out.
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***Alternative 3
1. Consolidate like skills together. Do NOT level up skills with character level.
2. Create separate "perk" system. This is where specifications and specializations can be taken in accordance with each of the skills, some mutually exclusive, some not. The ability to get them depends on the skill level, again compelling players to decide between growing deep or growing wide.
3. Interesting traits and abilities like The Knack, Digital Demolition, etc would fit into a place like this.
Example:
Skill: Science
Associated Perks (Req. lvl)
- Geology (1)
- Physics (2)
- Biology (3)
- Astronomy (4)
(This is a variation on Alt.1 that allows for more flexibility in build. However it is much more involved, and would probably require a whole new bunch of code. I cannot strongly recommend it on principle.)
I'm not at all sure this requires any coding. You can always name skills with a prefix like "Perk: " and just apply the rules as you wish with your players. No coding required. Just naming convention on your end as the GM. To have Skills not go up with Level, try setting the Skill Level = 0. I think that should work, though I have to double check.
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General Skill Consolidation considerations
1. Diametrically opposed skills should almost always be a single skill. (Ex: Trap Setting vs Trap Disarming, Detect Presence vs Hide in Shadows)
Yeah, ok, that makes some sense, sure. Though in traditional D&D it was not the case. You had set traps and find traps as two separate skills. Again the spread of Skills I think was in order to provide players with as wide and diverse set of options as possible to force them to choose among competing desires, and to NOT be able to get everything that they want. It was, iirc, a specific design goal on the part of early GMs... at least in the crowd that I cut my teeth with as a GM in the 1970's.
2. Skills that are requisite for a specific item are probably a bit much. I'm thinking of the KungFU ones, ore the "Bionetic Clinician" skill.
Yeah, this is probably the spot where I also have the most trouble with how the system works currently. I have things like Kung Fu Iron Fan skill. Once you learn that then you are able to use the Iron Fan weapon. The link between the two is a bit problematic. I have it in the Skill and Weapon descriptions that one needs both, but it still feels a bit klunky. That could use some refinement, I agree. But how to smooth out the wrinkle? I'm still working on that.
3. Many craft/trade skills should be consolidated. (Ex: Bartending and Cooking. Pottery and Glazing. Bartering and Fensing)
Again this is a matter of taste. To my mind pottery and glazing could indeed be consolidated, sure. But bartending and cooking? I see them as completely unrelated skill sets. Just because someone is a good bartender in no way assures me they are a good cook. And vice versa. So consolidation is a matter of taste. But I do agree, it should be done in the cases where it makes sense.
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Elective Skills
The Elective Skills system as it is set up is a handy way of differentiating between proficiency in class and non-class skills. Unfortunately, it also completely hamstrings the capacity to take levels in bunches (or even start at a high level depending on the campaign), because it really matters when a character takes a particular skill (doubly frustrating precisely because it pertains ONLY to the elective skills). While this isn't critical, it can become a tedious bit of babysitting, one that would be especially crippling if inviting new players.
While I don't entirely disagree, there are balancing factors involved with this setup that may not be immediately apparent. The Elective skills are also granted less Experience when used than Primary Skills. The purpose of this entire setup is to "encourage" without "enforcing" that players align their skills and therefore, to some degree, their activities according to their class. So Fighters, for a variety of reasons embedded in the system, tend to fight. Thieves tend to steal. Mystics tend to do mystical things. And this is largely because it is in their interests to do so.
That said, you could, and I have one GM who has, create a skills system in Mythos Machine that avoids all of these issues, by assigning very few skills, and very generic ones and adjusting their World configuration accordingly.
The point of Mythos Machine is to provide GMs with the ability to shape their Worlds as makes the most sense to them as the GM. So again if you try it, and you find that Mythos Machine can't quite manage to get the effect you want, let me know. I may be able to adjust or add a parameter to the World Config to provide the option that lets you get the effect you are shooting for. And I would be happy to do so as that would add more options for GMs to choose from. Which works for me.
Proposed Amendments
1. Allow players to set their skill levels, for all skills, at any time. (The most cumbersome option, as it compels players to understand the XP and SLP system so they aren't messing up their levels. Also means we'll be running on the honor system.)
I don't see this as a practical solution for most GMs. The honor system always sounds great in theory, but in practice it rarely works as intended. Not because people cheat so much as they simply forget or are a little lazy or they make mistakes. It is almost impossible to get it to work well consistently. I know. I've tried it many times. So far, it's rarely worked out well.
2. Elective skills are treated the same as normal skills but a character is limited to a certain maximum (2-3 at most). Could also include the limitation that once picked they can't be changed.
The GM can always simply put all Elective Skills into the All Skills book and make all classes take that book. Then all Elective Skills would become Primary and be treated as such in all cases... if that's what you want as a GM for your World you are free to do so. It's very easy, and the system is specifically designed to let you do exactly this.
3. No elective skills. Always an option.
Ditto above.
4. All non-class skills work at the level of an associated attribute bonus.
This one is tricky to do, and probably harder to make work well than it might seem. For one thing, Requisite bonuses can be negative. What then? In fact about one third of the time on average they should be negative. So how would that work. It sets up some bad math in that you have a floor of Level 1 for all skills but if their requisite bonus numbers are negative then they are going to be 1st level at the skill for a very long time. Not so sure players will be happy with that. And sure, some players will be delighted to have +1 or +2 on their Skills, but at the expense of other players who will be seriously disadvantaged by that system. At least so far as I understand what the proposal means. Maybe you can elaborate on it so I get a better idea if my first pass isn't correct.
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Requisite Based Physical Skills (Traits)
**This is the most radical section and I suggest you return to it later**
To differentiate the traits of a character further, it may be interesting to introduce "physical skills" that exist (mostly) independent of class and are dependent on the requisite bonuses. The idea would be that these are things that could exist in any setting.
Physical - Strength and Stamina based skills;
Mental - Intelligence and Wisdom based Skills
Dexterity - Agility and Coordination based skills
Examples
Physical
- Heavy Lifter
- Hiking
- Distance Runner
- Swimming
- Pain Tolerance
Mental
- Mathematics
- Literacy
- Empathy
- Concentration
- Aesthetics
Dexterity
- Acrobatic
- Flexible
- Fast Reflexes
- Climbing
- Light-footed
A character would have access to these skills based on their Requisite Bonus. Normally a character would have access to only 1. However, depending on the requisite bonus, a character would have greater or fewer slots to take the skills.
Example
Modifiers:
CON +1: can select 2 total Physical skills
MEN 0: can select 1 total Mental skill
DEX -1 can select 0 total Dexterity skills
This both differentiates characters at the base level and frees up SLP for more refined abilities. At it's most advanced, instead of having prime requisites (parent attributes), skills could have associated traits. Your Mental bonus does not affect your "Deception Skill", but if you have the "Empathy Trait", that does give you a +1.
It's a really interesting suggestion. This of course, however, would be a complete re-write of the entire system. While it's certainly possible to do given enough time and resources, it really doesn't fit into Elthos RPG and I would have to spend a great deal of effort to make something like this work. And even then I would probably not put it in Elthos RPG, but simply create a different game system based on the idea.
Not every system in the world of RPGs can do everything for everyone. This is why there are so many systems out there. Because everyone has a nuance that makes the most sense to them. They then go on to publish their rules modifications as new systems. And so right now, because of this, at last count a few years ago, somewhere around 4,000 RPGs on DriveThroughRPG, and growing at about 10 to 20 per month, iirc. I see this last idea as a good candidate for a new RPG that has a skills system which works as you outlined above. It's neat.
For better or worse, however, Elthos can't become a system that incorporates too many diverging ideas as it will unbalance the system, and it would make it very hard for GMs to ever configure it so that it doesn't wind up lopsided in one way or another. While I want to provide GMs with a wide variety of configuration options, they all exist within a definite set of boundaries which stay within the limits of balance for the system as a whole. If you play Elthos for a while, as I have, you will probably begin to see why those balancing factors exist, and how they are there to safeguard GM's worlds from going wildly off kilter. Which is easy enough to do as it is... which is why have have those big bold warnings on the World Configuration page that say "The options in this page should not be changed unless you fully understand the implications. Please read the options carefully. Modifications to these settings can potentially unbalance your world. If the results should not be to your liking you can reset your world to the Default World Settings by clicking the 'Reset Defaults' button. Please be aware that some Configuration changes may create historical alterations such as in Experience Gains that can not be undone automatically after the new Configuration has been used, even if you revert to the Default Settings. So caution in the use of this screen is strongly advised."
At any rate, thank you very much for your suggestions! While I can't manage to incorporate all of them, some of them are very useful and will help to create better Worlds for Mythos Machine going forward. Thank you!
And of course, please let me know your thoughts if you think I missed anything, or didn't understand a point you were making. And also, so far as the consolidation of skills is concerned, if you have recommendations for consolidating The Way of All Flesh skill set (or any of my Worlds), please let me know. I look forward to your help with it. Thanks again!
Edited by user
2020-06-30T03:03:33Z
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Reason: Not specified